Discussion of "Proclaim Truth. Expose Deception."

[0:00] John 7-14-24 About the middle of the feast, Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching.

[0:34] The Jews therefore marveled, saying, How is it that this man has learning when he has never studied? So Jesus answered them, My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether this teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

[0:52] The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory, but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in the hymn there is no falsehood. Has not Moses given you the law?

[1:03] Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me? The crowd answered, You have a demon who is seeking to kill you. Jesus answered them, I did one work, and you all marvel at it. Moses gave you circumcision, not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers, and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath.

[1:20] If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well? Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.

[1:35] Okay, so again, thinking about this morning, and seeing that here Jesus proclaims truth, and also exposes deception, proclaims the truth that he has.

[1:48] He says, He's the son of God sent from the Father, whose teaching is not his own, which comes directly from the Father, and that's what he's preaching, and he's proclaiming that truth. And as he's doing so, he's also exposing the deception of the Jewish religious leaders who were there, who were obviously against him, antagonizing him, questioning whether or not what he said was true, and in so doing, he also exposes their deception.

[2:16] So, this text is talking about how we proclaim truth and how we expose deception as believers, right? Or that was the main application, the main idea.

[2:29] And so the first question was, what false teachings are Christians most lured and tempted to believe? And Josiah has the microphone, he's the mic man tonight.

[2:41] So if you would like to answer the question, just raise your hand, and he will bring you the microphone. What false teachings are Christians most lured and tempted to believe?

[2:57] What have you seen? Maybe even what have you experienced? Are there certain false teachings that are alluring to Christians, and why are they?

[3:10] Okay. Okay. Ted, and then Cameron. Might have to, yeah, there you go, Ted.

[3:23] One is on prosperity, that, and this was stated to me by a cousin of mine that got into that prosperity, I believe, said, you ask God for anything, whatever you want, he's got to give it to you, which is totally wrong.

[3:41] Yeah. So, obviously, prosperity is one, a big one, a really big one. Okay, Cameron? I guess I'll not say prosperity.

[3:51] I stole it. Right? I think one of the ones I've seen fairly prevalent is that we can accept everything if we just love people.

[4:05] All we're responsible for is loving people, and we can accept anything. So like a universalism? Yeah. All roads lead to heaven, no one goes to hell, except for maybe the really bad people like Hitler, but nobody else.

[4:25] Okay? Okay. Chip, and then Danny in the back. It's, you know, you find there's, Jesus said it's a narrow way, and you find that on both sides of, there's a ditch on both sides of the road, one of legalism, and the other one of liberalism, you know, but it is following Christ, you know, that is, you know, the most important.

[4:56] We, I mean, there's people that, and in our mentality, you may, we, most of us fall in either one of those two camps, and it is difficult sometimes.

[5:16] You know, you get put in a situation, you think, oh, you know, but that we need to uphold the law, and all that stuff, but, but it is Christ, that is, by which we are saved, and by whom we, we are guided, and everything, so.

[5:36] Yeah. Good. Legalism. We'll talk more about, what it's alluring about legalism too, because I think that's, that's what a lot of people are tempted to think, well, I know, obviously, we're called as Christians, to be obedient to God's word, but we can, we can veer over into legalism, if we're not careful, and it is appealing.

[6:02] All right. Good. Danny? I think, man-centered theology. Okay. So, it's appealing, when everything seems to be working, the way that you want it to be, that, you might be able to elaborate better on this than I can, if you know what I'm saying, but, and also, I think the churches are guilty of feeding into this, it's easier to feed into a man-centered theology, whenever you see your churches starting to, empty out and empty out, what better way to fill it, other than to, tell people what they want to hear, and people like to hear about themselves.

[6:39] Yeah. Good. So, think like the straight and narrow, right? This is orthodoxy, this is gospel, and then, over on the right, like the ditch that you've got to be careful that you fall into, is, more health and wealth, universalism, liberalism, then you have legalism, kind of over here.

[7:02] What's, tempting, what's luring, about the health and wealth gospel? Why is that such a temptation to us? What is the appeal there, to us?

[7:17] Okay. And peace. To have enough, of whatever it is, you know, that's not what I was going to talk about though.

[7:28] Okay, go ahead and, give us your comment. What I was going to say, one of the things that's, that's the most disturbing, and having lived through the generation, that did this, and the one that bothers me, and worries me the most, is easy salvation.

[7:44] Hmm. You know, we think that because our brothers, walked down the island, and got dunked, that they're, you know, living like hell, but you know, they're saved, they put down there, and there's so many people, that believe that, the evidence is not there, and God says, to check yourself, to see where you are, and yeah, we can't, we can't check the list off, you know, I've done this, I've done that, I've done this, I've done that, and I do this, and I tithe, I never miss a church, that don't gain you piddly too.

[8:24] Yeah. That's what bothers me, that's the thing that I, I see, people in my age, especially, and in fact, I visited a church, the one time I've been gone, and probably since I went to, Latvia, was to go down to, my, Sophia's, new stepdad's, soon, church, and I actually heard, the pastor there says, come down, and get your ticket to heaven.

[8:56] Oh boy. And I about flipped my lid, Yeah. right there, because it's not a ticket to heaven, and it's not easy. Mm-mm. So that's what bothers me.

[9:10] Okay. Good. Good comments. So I think we obviously know, what is, um, attractive in the health and wealth gospel, or why it attracts people, because it's this thought, that you can have enough faith, that God will, you know, yeah, grant you, your request, almost as if he's some kind of, cosmic genie, just waiting for you, to somehow figure it out, figure out how to have this great faith, so that you can, uh, order him to, make you more prosperous, um, more healthy, and whatnot.

[9:43] Really, seeking to try to, use him, to create a heaven on earth, for you. And, clearly, I mean, I don't think we need to spend, a whole lot of time, looking around, at those of you who are here, that, that is not something, that we, or you, believe, because we see clearly in scripture, that, that's not found, right?

[10:02] And we can go through, all kinds of scriptures, to, to point that out, and shoot holes through, the prosperity gospel. But, but, you know, sometimes, I mean, we, we understand the appeal, because, um, for, especially for some people, who, uh, you know, gosh, that's especially, in our nation, we want, and, well, and actually, we see it, you know, over in Africa now, that's a, the, the, the health and wealth gospel, has spread great there, and in areas like that, where, you know, um, maybe the future looks bleak, and so, I, I want to be healthy, I want to be wealthy, and if I can just, say a prayer, and have enough faith, and God will give it to me, that would be a lot easier, than trying to do, anything else, okay?

[10:45] So, I think we understand the lure, for that one, and maybe that one's not, so tempting for us, but I think that legalism is, tempting for us, and the more, conservative theological churches, right?

[10:59] Why, is legalism, tempting, to us? Nick, all right, Josiah, cross country. Okay. You know, I think the prosperity gospel, and legalism, in a sense, they're connected, because they're both, very much about you, and you're in control, so in the prosperity gospel, God owes you something, if you have enough faith, and he has to heal you, with legalism, if you check off, all the boxes, then, again, you're the one, who's in control, it's not about grace, and it's not about, the mercy God has shown you, in Christ, it's about, you getting your due, in the end, because you earned it, and so I think, that is the, the natural bent, of our hearts, is to think that, we're still in control, yeah, it's pride, yeah, and I think, we can say it, because, you know, it's really weird, we worked with Muslims, and all over the world,

[12:10] Muslims always talk about, the scale, of God's justice, and it's like, well, you know, I mean, I did some bad things, I'll admit that, but I did these nice things, over here, and it all kind of, evens out, and that idea, is just pervasive, in the Islamic world, but then the weird thing is, you start talking to Americans, and I mean, they say the same things, it's really funny, and it's like this idea, of, of that there are, these scales, that we can manipulate, through our actions, I think that's a really, attractive one, a really attractive idea, to people, because again, it lets them feel like, they're in control, good, yeah, good point, I do, I agree, I think that they are linked, in the same way, that it's about, us, it's about, trying to put, God in a way, or make feel, make us feel like, God is in our debt, in a way, look God, I have been in Sunday school, every Sunday, for the past,

[13:14] X amount of years, right, or Sundays, and I've been praying, and I've been reading the Bible, and almost this thought of, you know, you should owe me something, or if something bad happens to me, like, why, how could that happen to me, you know, look at my good, look at my good track record, and I think sometimes, don't we see in legalism, there is a, well, we certainly see it with the Pharisees, and one of the appeal of it, is that it can make us feel better, than other people, we can boast, and we can brag about that too, I think we can see that happening, in the church sometimes, don't we, where people can develop, legalistic attitudes, where, they, they can have a sense, that they're, better than others, we can have that attitude, in the church, if we're not careful, and we can look down upon, other people, if they, certainly if they're, an unbeliever, or if they come into, our church, and maybe they're not, dressed in a way, that we think is appropriate, or, you know, just following along, with our traditions, then we can have a sense, that you know, of superiority, to them, and, you know, if you've noticed, people especially, in our nation, they kind of like, to feel superior, to other people, don't they?

[14:40] I don't know, I guess I got to be, a little bit careful, with what I say, but you know, we're always forming, these like, inner circles, aren't we? And I think it was, C.S. Lewis, that pointed it out, like, the reason why people, form inner circles, is so that they can, exclude other people, from their group, and that makes them, feel better, about themselves.

[15:04] And so, it's interesting, I know wherever you work, you know, you might be aware, of some of the inner circles, that have formed, and, maybe it comes at the top, and so the people below, think, well I can't, I can't get into that, right, unless I, get promoted, but I can form my own, little circle, inner circle here, here, and I can exclude, the people that I, that I view, as being down here.

[15:29] And, and there's something, about our, sinfulness, that, that likes, to feel, make ourselves feel, better than we truly are, and to exclude other people, as well, and thinking that, you know, we're better than, than others.

[15:44] And obviously, we see that, that's not a, a Christ-like attitude, I think legalism, plays into that, as well, making us think, that we're, better than we are, based upon our deeds, and, and like Nick pointed out too, you know, we, we can, we can think, we have all these good deeds, that outweigh our bad deeds, so basically, we're a, we're a good person, when, when that's not, not really true, you know, according to scripture, we've all fallen way short, of, the glory of God, incredibly short, but, we like to think, that we're a lot better, people, than we really are, and so that's part, of the appeal as well, I think we've got to be careful, with legalism again, in churches like ours, because, we can get into the accounting, we can get into, we can fall into traditionalism, and, it's just something, that we've got to be, mindful of, what about, the second part of that question, what false teachings, are unbelievers, unbelievers most tempted, to believe,

[16:50] I think we already mentioned one, universalism, all roads, lead to heaven, there is no hell, love, wins, God is love, and that's certainly, one that we understand, especially in our culture, why that's such, such an appealing message, to unbelievers, we live in a nation, that's still, a lot of people believe in God, say that they're Christian, but, based upon their belief, really where they land, is universalism, they don't, they don't believe in hell, they don't, they don't, you know, they have a misperception, of the cross, and why Christ died upon it, that he was more, of setting a good example, a good moral teacher, for us to follow his influence, and so it's, it's, it's just a weak, watered down, doctrine, if it is doctrine at all, this is basically, the doctrine is, everybody goes to heaven, and we can understand, why that's attractive, to them, right, especially because, we live in a day, and age of tolerance, to tell somebody, that if they don't believe, in Jesus Christ, as the Lord and Savior, that he's the only way, the truth, and the life, that's an exclusive statement, and not a, not a popular statement, people are offended, when they, when they hear, that salvation, is based solely upon, grace alone, through Christ alone, that's not, that's not a tempted, a message,

[18:28] I should say, that a lot of people, want to hear, but are more often, offended by, so we understand, that universalism, is one, that, that many, unbelievers, are, appealed to, what, what else, have you seen, what false teachings, are unbelievers, most tempted to believe, anything else, besides universalism, Caitlin, Caitlin, I think just, materialism, and consumerism, and just staying busy, and not having to think about, spiritual things, and just getting through, life normally, without, considering that aspect, yeah, absolutely, I think something else, is, that you need to, express yourself, and you'll find, fulfillment in that, and, like if, if you watch movies, so many modern movies, it's about like, society oppressing, this poor person, and then they, they like, overcome society, and show, what's inside of themselves, like the true self, it's like, yeah, but what if, your true self, is totally depraved, and like, completely wicked, nobody thinks that, they just think like, well, if I feel this way, must be inherently good, and nobody wants to consider, the opposite of that being true, good, good, good, materialism, certainly, you know,

[20:13] I remember, I've said this before, the late owner, of the, then Oakland Raiders, Al Davis, who was a pretty terrible, man in life, was asked a question, when I was watching an interview, on ESPN, years before he died, and what was the purpose of life, and he said, isn't it obvious, that he who dies with the most wins, that was his attitude in life, and, really unfortunate, but yeah, that's clearly one, and then the other one is, I think as Nick pointed out, your, live your truth, know your truth, be about your truth, you know, my truth doesn't have to be your truth, in order to be true, you can have a truth, that contradicts my truth, but somehow, we're both magically correct, right, that certainly is out there, you know, find your true self, right, like you said, and this thought, that you can go on this personal journey, and find out who you really are, and reach some kind of enlightenment, that everybody else is trying to suppress you, or push you down, especially, and we talk about movies, and television,

[21:25] Christians are often portrayed, as the suppressors, right, of keeping you from experiencing, you know, your true, or being your true self, or whatever, yeah, those are definitely appealing messages, that the world is eating up, and dispensing, as well, Kendra, I was thinking about, what Danny said, with the, she mentioned, human centered, teachings, and philosophies, you know, a lot of, things that we hear, are things like, well, I can't imagine a God, who would, or I can't imagine, yes, that God would do this, or, that doesn't sound like God, to me, yes, and, and I don't know if that, I mean, I don't know if that attracts unbelievers, but it certainly pushes them away, yeah, and helps them, you know, in that endeavor, to not believe, when we choose to see God, in the light of who we are, versus, in the light of who he is,

[22:31] I mean, I was thinking Isaiah 40, talking about, you know, who, who can understand, who can comprehend, God, we can't, we can't fully understand him, there's going to be things, that we just, will not know, until eternity, why, why, why did you, harden Pharaoh's heart, why didn't you save him, you know, why didn't you save Hitler, and then everything would be different, yeah, you know, those types of things, we, we can't begin to understand, the knowledge of God, yeah, good, good comments, and I was thinking in that too, like mysticism, new age, new ageiness, whatever you want to call it, and I can't, I can't think of, the name for it, somebody might help me, but it's basically the, you're putting positive thoughts, out there, have you heard, and this is, really has to deal with the health, and wealth gospel as well, and materialism, but, you put positive thoughts, out into the universe, universe, and, and the more you do that, the universe, you know, receives that positive energy, and then directs, you know, whatever it is that you're,

[23:44] I want that promotion, I want that car, I want that relationship, or whatever, and, and you put that out into the universe, and it comes back to you, through whatever, I can't even think of the name of it, but, I hope you're not doing that, it's wicked, but, I was, I think it was on, I think it was on Netflix, and I think it was, I didn't watch very much of it, but, you know, sometimes I'm just interested, like, what's this about, and I think it was called The Secret, if you've watched that, and, that's what it was all about, because I was interested, like, you know, I already know the answer is Christ, but I wonder what their secret is about, and that's basically what it was, is you can put out this positive energy, into the universe, and by doing so, you know, basically, make things happen for you, yeah, sort of, they're all kind of, so mysticism is attractive as well, so we just got to understand that, you know, in our culture, that people have a lot of this, kind of jarbled belief system, maybe they grew up in the church, they've heard the gospel, maybe they again, went to Sunday school class, but then, they've listened to some of these other teachers, and obviously, they're attracted to, wanting their best life now, and having, being as healthy and wealthy as possible, and thinking that they have the power, to, change the circumstances in their life, by pushing positive energy out, in receiving these great things, as a result of that as well,

[25:27] I don't know, if you've seen people who do this, they have the dream boards, right, or people will have notes in their house, and they'll kind of repeat these things every day, and, you know, that's their way to send out these positive vibes, that are going to, come back, and, and get them what they want, so, okay, next question, what is the most effective way, that Christians can expose false teachers, and their teaching, so obviously, as we talked about, there's a lot, there's legalism, there's the health and wealth gospel, there's mysticism, there's this man-centered theology, or love for yourself, thinking that, basically, kind of like Satan was, tempting Adam and Eve, that you can be your own God, and that's really kind of what that positive energy is, you know, I have the power to, to, to send good things my way, through my thoughts, and so we know there's a lot of this out there, right, so what's the most effective way, that Christians can expose false teachers, and their teachings,

[26:29] Kayla? So like any good, outline, follower, I tried to guess the lines, before you get to them, and one of the words, that came to mind, when I was looking at this, was what's the most biblical way, that Christians can expose, good, effectiveness, effectiveness, I mean, I think it's going to depend on, the situation that you're in, and who you're talking to, and what they're coming at you with, but I think, the most biblical thing we can do, is look at what Jesus, did with the Pharisees, and Sadducees, as, they were trying to test him, and, debunk his teachings, and, and, one of the most clear, responses, is in, that I found, quickly, was in, Matthew chapter 22, and all he did, was reply, they're asking about, you know, marriage, upon resurrection, like, the woman who remarries, you know, all the way down, to the seventh brother, upon resurrection, who does she go to, and he replies, you are in error, because you do not know, the scriptures, or the power of God, and not everybody, is going to accept that answer, because they may not, read scripture, and they not, may not believe in God, but if we can equip ourselves, with scripture, that's all we need to, fight, or, yeah, answer, yeah, that's a great answer, and I like your, fill in word, better than mine, might have to ask you next time, but that's great, that's a great, great answer, okay, good,

[28:22] Cameron, and to go along with that, I think, unfortunately, there's so many, false teachers, out there right now, that use the Bible, to disprove the Bible, that you better know, context, you better know, resources, we have a family member, who, I mean, dad is pastor, grandpa, missionaries, and he, came out as gay, to the family, and we said, you know, look at scripture, you know, we were, you know, all of us are, you know, Bible believing Christians, and he had a twisted answer, for everything, and I think you see that, when, especially when, the devil tempts, Jesus, up on, out in the desert, and up on the temple, Satan himself, used scripture, and slightly twisted it, to tempt, Jesus, yes, but then at the end of it, you see how Jesus, correctly applies, scripture, and so, unfortunately, even today's standards, it's almost not enough, just to know the Bible, because,

[29:36] I've argued, or had, conversations with some people, where, you take them to a scripture, and they say, well, this is why that scripture is false, and we know it's wrong, and we know that the translation, was mixed up, and so, unfortunately, nowadays, you almost even have to know, okay, was this translated correctly, how was it translated, what proof do we have, outside of just the scripture, because, there's so many resources out there, to support these, man-centered, you know, false teachings, that are so tempting, because it's, it's so easy, to kind of just slightly, twist, the gospel, to say, oh yeah, I can just love everybody, I can be myself, live in a, completely, sinful lifestyle, but I can be okay with it, because of how, I've, just twisted the scripture, enough, that I'm comfortable, with where I'm at, and so, I think, like, I think you said this morning, the most effective way, is eye to eye, but we've got to love people first, and if we're coming at them, with anger and hatred, it's just going to push them further, into their belief, but if we can lovingly, show them the scripture, and then show them the support, of why we know scripture, is accurate,

[30:53] I think that's, that's where we start, to maybe make headway, good, all right, Danny, back there, yeah, I mean, understanding, I agree, just so I can take it, to Danny back there, thank you sir, certainly knowing scripture, is going to best, that's the most, biblical way, that we can, we can address these things, but then also, understanding scripture, in context, you know, when we have these, disagreements, with people, who want to twist the scripture, we see Satan twist it, and he uses scripture, out of context, and a lot of what they're doing, is they're using it, out of context as well, so, you know, this is the importance, of abiding, in God's word, understanding, like, memorizing scripture, is always great, but also like, knowing, the context, behind, you know, who, you know the author, is the Holy Spirit, but who, who was the human author, whom he used, who is he writing to, what were the issues, and we're able to do that, and, and,

[31:56] I think, bottom line, just as Christians, we need to be better, like, Bible experts, when we're, problem is, we're dealing with a lot, of biblical illiteracy, and a lot of Christians, who can kind of like, paraphrase the Bible, but they can't really, point to, those texts, and, and, and dig deeper, into them, yeah, okay, Danny, I think that, a lot of churches, a lot of Christians, can get lazy, and, they get pretty reliant, upon the pastor, or, the teachers, that are teaching them, and, and they just kind of rely, on going to church, on Sunday morning, and getting their fill, and they're just going to, accept whatever is, is preached to them, without really even, opening up the Bible, and I think there's a lot of churches, even nowadays, that they don't even open up, the Bible, it's just whatever the preacher, feels like saying that day, and so, I think that, one way that we can, expose false teaching, is, we need to hold, each other accountable, we need to be doing, our own research, we don't need to, just be spoon fed things, we need to take responsibility, upon ourselves,

[33:05] I think that, you know, like you talked about, us, you know, following Rob Bell, you know, there's been plenty of teachers, you know, or, people that I have followed, and then, later on, they kind of take a turn, and it's, it breaks your heart, a little bit, but it's also, it's humbling, you know, that, you just have to, constantly, keep things in check, good, okay, good comments, what did, how did Jesus, expose false teachers, we see here, right, he exposed their hypocrisy, because they, were, upset with him, for healing a man, on the Sabbath, right, and he's saying, that thing that you marveled about, I healed a man, on the Sabbath, and you, have developed, these man, made traditions, regarding the Sabbath, taking out of the fact, what God said is that, you know, the Sabbath was created for man, right, as a day of rest, but they took that, understanding to an extreme, that God didn't intend, for them to take it, and so he heals a man, on the Sabbath, and then he points out, but yet you guys, and he does in other ways, which one of you, after, you know, if your, if your ox, stumbles, yeah, or falls, would you not, help it out of the pit, right on the Sabbath, so he's, constantly pointing out, their hypocrisy, right, and they're, not practicing, what they preached, and, and, and so he was willing, to, to address, them, and to, and to be clear, in, in exposing, the fact, that they weren't practicing, what they preached, so how did Jesus, expose false teachers, well, he would, he would engage them, in conversation, and he would point out, the error, of their ways, and he wasn't afraid, to do that, but did he do that, with everybody, who had a, a, a false understanding, understanding, or, or who was deceived, was that his, his, his go-to method, every time, was it always, to kind of have those, back and forth, engagements,

[35:15] Julie says no, I think he only, I think he only did that, with, people who were, well, even, Pharisees, and the fact, that they thought, that they were, following the law, and going correctly, and all of that, and had, an attitude, maybe that's what, I'm trying to say, but you see him, be very tender, with the woman, at the well, you see him, be very tender, with the lepers, that no one, would approach, blind Ravis, and on, and on, and on, and, so, I think that, it's almost like, if he saw a group, of people, that did, maybe, were influencers, or, were people, who had the ears, of other people, that, that he would, he would address that, straightforwardly, and, and, you know,

[36:23] I don't, I don't think, I don't think, I don't think, sure, you wrap up your, good, yeah, you know, I'm not, no, good, so, yeah, because I was thinking about, the, Samaritan woman, as well, and obviously, there's, much more, tenderness, we see from the Lord, as well, but he's the one, who's approaching her, he's the one, who's asking the question, she's got these, misconceptions, of, salvation, of who the Messiah is, and, here's this man, who, is a Jew, and she can tell, is a rabbi, who should have no association, with her, whatsoever, in that culture, yet he's talking to her, he's addressed her, and he's sharing with her, and she's got these, misunderstandings, where do we, you worship here, we say that we, are supposed to worship here, and he, but he continues, to compassionately, direct her towards truth, and I also think, when he interacts with, when Nicodemus, comes to him at night, his, his, conversation with him, is,

[37:27] I mean, he's, he, I mean, he's obviously speaking, with someone, who has knowledge, but it's not the same, it's not the same approach, as with the, yeah, with the Pharisees, and I think it has to do, with him knowing, how Nicodemus, was coming to him, yeah, that he was, that he was intrigued, that he was, that he'd been thinking about it, and I mean, I think God had been working, on his heart, but, do we, so do we see, with those who are, truly searching, sincerely searching, or those who are just, completely lost, yeah, or with those who are just, they lost, they're, maybe they're lost, and they don't even know it, or they're confused, but who, who can I go, to clear it, so you know, with Nicodemus, or with the woman, at the well, we see, even though Nicodemus, came to Jesus, still, a conversation, that, you know, was just a one-on-one, you know, our Lord, talking to those, individuals, still not, you know, still I think exposing, the deceptions, that they had believed, but, but proclaiming that truth, but in not such a, a large crowd, in a, in a bigger setting, but is that interesting too, correct me if I'm wrong, but do we ever see,

[38:54] Jesus, searching out the Pharisees, wherever they are, to interrupt their, dialogue, and to jump in, and be like, let me, you, you, and he called them, Brutal Vipers, and he was right, but you know, did he ever crash their meetings, or their teachings, and interrupt them, with questions, yeah, that's true, but we don't, we don't, we don't ever see him do it, it was, they, they were the ones, who were the interrupters, they were the ones, who were the doubters, and the questions, and the ones, who were lying about him, and calling him a deceiver, right, I think it's a matter, I think it's a matter, of those, who have an honest part, and those, who simply have an argument, and the spirit, yes, yes, all right, have you, Willard, with lots of ministry experience, and I think, and that's kind of, what I was getting around to, is I think, you know, as we, as we, please use the microphone, they would like to hear, they would like to, oh we are, okay, all right, yeah, do we need to go back, take two, so, because I think, that's what we're getting to, is there are occasions, where, you know, with Jesus, we see clearly, that he is engaging, in debate, with the Pharisees, over, they're attacking him, his proclaiming the truth, and then also exposing, the lies that they have taught, and the deception, right, there's, there's, there's a time, and a place for that, but then we see, other instances, where it's, one-on-one, it's, it's, it's a different tone, that the Lord is taking, with the, with that person, who he's speaking to, is sincerely searching, or who, maybe doesn't realize, the deception, that they are under, and, and we see that too, you know, he's not, his language isn't as sharp, with the woman at the well, as it is with the Pharisees, so,

[41:08] I was just thinking, in your experience, you know, have you, encountered either, one of those situations, which I'm sure that you have, it's just like, when somebody comes to you, with those questions, or, or is just lost, so you take like, a Samaritan woman case, or a Pharisee, who's just antagonistic, I just want to debate you, I just don't like you, what is the best, way to approach those?

[41:36] Well, if they've got an argument, of the spirit, I just have the idea, just, you're not going to change their mind, yeah, you're not going to change them, God can, but, you present truth, and then, go your way, an honest heart, you know, if they're genuinely, seeking after truth, and what truth is, the first, the first avenue, you need to approach is, you know, where, where do they stand, as far as relationship, with Christ?

[42:06] You know, have they truly, been saved, and that's, that's the, the avenue, that I've always approached, right at the beginning, I know they've got, honest questions, they don't understand, maybe there's, maybe there's circumstances, in their life, that, that they don't understand, and can't find a way, through that, to come to the, the, the vital question, you know, do you, know for a certain, for certainty, that you have, a saving relationship, with Christ, and, explain what that means, and, and even ask, if they even, if they say yes, ask them, tell me about, how that came about, in your life, to get some handle, on whether or not, they really have, been saved, because if, if they've not been saved, then, they don't know, the direction, and leadership, of the spirit of God, and these truths, and so, they've got to have that, yeah.

[43:13] Good, so there's a time, especially with those, who are sincere, to clear up, their misconceptions, or, where perhaps, they've been deceived before, and to point them, to scripture, and show them, how that is, not in line, with the word of God, but to do so, in a compassionate, and loving way, all the while, just digging into, and maybe asking, those questions, to find out, okay, what do you, actually believe, yeah, I remember, Abdu Murray, at a luncheon, one time, said anybody, that's got, really, an argumentative, spirit, and seeking questions, he said, there's always, they always have, some baggage, that they're dealing with, and the best thing, to do, is try to get through, and find out, what that baggage, really is, what is the actual, issue, in their heart, in their life, that's creating, the spirit, that they demonstrate, three, good, yeah, with unbelievers, sometimes, we've got, like Willard said, if they got to, just, they just want to argue, and they just want to fight, yeah, you got to get to a point, where eventually, we stop casting our pearls, before swine, right, not that I'm not going, to continue to pray for you, but I realize, that this is not, going to do, anybody, any good, and there's a time, even when Jesus, where, and we know, ultimately, his plan, was to go to the cross, where the debate, was over, and they slapped him, and they spit in his face, and he took it, you know, he had proclaimed, the truth to them, he had exposed, their hypocrisy, they had rejected him, and there came a point, in time too, where he endured, and I'm sure, that you've had, those examples too, not to compare ourselves, in any way, to what he's gone through, but eventually, and you maybe have too, as a Christian, where you've been in, in one of those, kind of situations, with somebody, with an argumentative, spirit, where eventually, you realize, this is not, beneficial, for me, or for you, or for anybody, around us, and yet, when you walked away, then maybe they, that was their time, to lie about you, or to say things about you, that weren't true, to attack your character.

[45:18] Yeah, or if you can, you can offer, offer a one-on-one, time with him, at some point, and if they're willing, to do that, then fine, and then there's, then there's the third, the third group, if you will, and that's those, that just want to show you, how much they know, which in reality, they're showing their ignorance, yeah, most of the time, not the rest, but most of the time, yeah.

[45:41] Good, thank you, Willard. Yolanda, right here, Josiah. Okay, I don't have an answer, but I have a question.

[45:53] Okay. We were witnessing, to our neighbor's son, one time, and of course, he had things turned around, and it just, like it just, stopped us, we didn't know what else, else to say, told him about the Bible, he says, I don't believe in the Bible, he said, it's not true, it's just a book, where do we go from there, I mean, I don't know what else, and it has bothered me, ever since, you know, I don't know, I want to reach out to him again, but we don't, I don't know what to do.

[46:21] Yeah, well, and I think that's where you keep, the dialogues of communication over, and so I'd ask questions like, what do you, what do you believe? He's the son of the God.

[46:32] Yeah, I know who you're talking about. Yeah, okay. That doesn't surprise me. I want to add that to it. Okay, good. So he's gotten a lot, and so apparently, this is somebody who has a Christian background, and so I'd ask, that's where I'd start asking questions, well, what do you believe, what do you believe about the Bible?

[46:48] Why do you believe that? Who told you that? And just try to, try to figure out, okay, where is that coming from? You know, ultimately, just keeping those lines of communication open, so you can continue to share what you know, about the, about scripture, what, what, you know, and then even getting into some of the, the, the, the evidence that we have, outside of scripture, that testifies to, to, to it being, a, a book, unlike any other book, the amount of manuscripts that we have, how close, how close, the, the manuscripts we, we do have in possession are to the ones, the original ones that were written, right, and providing some of that evidence, but again, I mean, you can provide that evidence, and if this person, like we said, has an argument of spirit, you know, eventually, is it going to get anywhere, but I would say, my advice, and some, and other people's can, can chirp in too, but I would keep those lines of communication open, and try to figure out, well, what do you believe, and why do you hold that position?

[47:56] Yeah, we want to just, we're trying to build his friendship. Yeah. I'm a friend first, so that maybe he would be more, Yeah, that's, but he's influenced a lot, from what his mother, has taught him.

[48:06] Yeah, and I, yeah, and I, I think it's wonderful, that you guys are doing that, and it's just to, to continue to keep those lines of communication, to, you know, maybe do some of your homework, in these other ways, especially as you, but when you keep those lines of communication open, and you're asking questions, to find out, where this person is at, and they're, then hopefully, and then we'll, Caitlin over here, and they're asking you the questions, that they have about what you believe, and you keep that line of communication open, where you come back, and you say, hey, you asked me these questions, and you give those answers, and then maybe they have some more questions, and it's this back and forth, you're, you're keeping that conversation going, praying throughout it, that hopefully this is somebody, who God will, who will save.

[48:52] Caitlin? Yeah, I just wanted to say, that I really appreciate, what you're saying about, that aspect of trying to keep, the lines of communication open, because I know, like as I was trying to learn, how do I dialogue with Muslims, or share with them, one thing I noticed, is that when they say something, that's the total opposite, of what I believe, my default, was to be, to feel a little bit afraid, and to feel threatened, by that, and to kind of have like, a deer in the headlights, just like freeze moment, of like, oh no, this is horrible, we don't believe the same thing, now we can't talk, and like, I think that over time, it became the opposite, where I started to think like, ha ha, we don't believe the same thing, so if I listen to you, then I can learn, what you believe, and, why you believe it, which will help me, in another conversation, with a friend later, and it's like, it switched, from being afraid, of that diversity, or the difference, to like, yeah, now we're getting somewhere, this is good, we're different, you know, so I think that was,

[50:03] I just, I really appreciate that, keeping that dialogue open, yeah, good, yeah, and with that, what Caitlin said, is, you know, being so convicted, in what you believe, and what you know, and the salvation, that you have in Christ, that people can ask you, these questions, they cannot believe, what you believe, but you can still, not take offense, to it, because I'm so sure, in what I believe, that you can say, that there is no God, you can say, that Jesus Christ, isn't your Lord and Savior, and while that is heartbreaking, for me that you don't, I'm not going to, run away from the conversation, because I've been offended, by you, or whatever, because again, I think we look at, what Jesus encountered, with the Pharisees, they said all kinds of, hateful, horrible, things about him, lies about him, they said that he was, demon possessed, you know, have any of you been, accused of being demon possessed, as you've tried to share, the gospel, with somebody, and they would say, these horrible things, but I don't ever, see an instance, where Jesus says, that really hurt my feelings, you know, not to say, that it didn't,

[51:08] I mean, it broke his heart, but it wasn't, it didn't cause him, to run away, from that conversation, right, because he knew, who he was, he knew his mission, he knew why he had come, and so for us, to do the same way, keep those lines, of communication open, not run away, from that, and I think too, it's important, that we understand, that if, you know, we'll get asked, some really good questions, some hard questions, some questions, that maybe we hadn't, thought about before, and we weren't quite, prepared to answer, and I think, the best thing to do, in those situations, is do the honest thing, and be like, you know, that's a great question, I hadn't thought about it, but would you give me, some time, I don't know, but I want to, I want to talk about, this again, and can we come, can we talk about, this again, and just, you know, be outright, and open with that, and in my experience, people have been, receptive to that, you know, and they want to keep, that conversation going, if they're sincere, but if they just want to fight, then, then they'll just want to fight, last question, we only have a few minutes, left, one minute left, why is it important, that Christians, not just proclaim the truth, but guard, the church against error, and I think,

[52:19] I hope that, we can answer this one, without having, a whole lot of, conversation within it, but because I think, we're probably, we have all, heard of a church, maybe even been, a part of a church, where, deception crept in, and we saw, it's, you know, destructive influence, on the church, and on the people, whether they, went, in a legal, or, yeah, legal, legalistic direction, or a liberal direction, or something else, it, it tears the church apart, and we've got to understand, that Satan, hates God, hates his people, hates the church, and wants to, to destroy it, and wants to seek, its destruction, and that he is sending, wolves described, as lambs, into the congregation, into the flock, and so how do we best, guard against the church, well I think it's, with the word of God, right, in our, in our bylaws, in our statements, of belief, it should be, things that, you know, are grounded, in scripture, and certainly, in our teaching, in our preaching, and I mean, and I'm talking about, all of our teaching,

[53:38] I'm talking about, what we're teaching, our kids, who can barely talk, in the nursery, what are we, teaching them, down there even, what are we teaching, our kids, in Awana, in Sunday school, what are we teaching, our teens, and youth group, and our adults, and just making sure, that everything, that we're teaching, and that we're teaching, is, is biblical, is scriptural, and then, encouraging also, I think, with that, our teaching, and preaching, but then our encouraging, the people in our church, to be, knowledgeable, in the word, right, to do their own study, to feed upon, the word of God, throughout the week, instead of just coming in here, on Sunday, and that's the only time, they're getting any kind of, of Bible, any kind of, you know, spiritual nourishment, that we need, from it, and so, encouraging, and helping one another, to stay, in the word of God, throughout the week, as well, that will, that will make a church,

[54:47] I think, stronger, and healthier, as well, and you know, and again, I encourage you, listen, I will, at times, and you've seen this, there will be times, I'll make a mistake, I'll say something, that maybe I didn't, mean to say, in that way, right, when I'm preaching, or maybe I'll, but you know, nothing heretical, you know, I hope, I don't, I really hope not, but you know, I might say, something like, I think one time, I, the Hebrews, I mentioned that, that somebody wrote it, that I, it was just a slip of the tongue, I didn't really, I don't really think that person wrote it, but somebody just asked a question, and that was just like a mistake, but, so I ask you to be patient, with those things, but you know, like seriously, with me, or whoever is preaching, to you, on Sundays, Sunday nights, it's imperative, that you, also know, the word of God, and that you hold those accountable, who, stand behind the pulpit, to preach from it, that's really important, that churches do that, as well, okay, let's close in prayer,

[56:02] Lord God, thank you for this time, that we have together, Lord, we thank you for the truth, the truth that's contained, in your word, truth that's found, in your son, Jesus Christ, Lord, we ask, and we pray, that Father, we would follow his example, that we would, proclaim the truth, as he proclaimed it, Lord, that we would do so, compassionately, but that we, we would do so, correctly, that Lord, we wouldn't seek to, to dull the edge, of the blade, of your sword, word, that we wouldn't seek, to water down, its truth, so that it's, easier to be swallowed, by, by those who are, antagonistic, about it, Lord, that we would, handle, those who are, antagonistic, whether, whether they're just, they have a, an angry spirit, spirit, and they're looking, for argument, to have the patience, and the discernment, and the wisdom, to know how to handle, them in the best way possible, and then also, for those who are sincere,

[57:11] Lord, to take the time, to spend with them, and to, sort through, what they do believe, and, and, Lord, you know, take them back, to scripture, point them, to Christ, and God, I pray for each of us, like Yolanda, I pray for her, as she continues, to try to reach out, to this young man, God, that you would, help her, to continue to engage him, and to ask him questions, that this conversation, would continue to proceed, and I pray, Lord, that for each of us, you would put somebody, like that, in our life, somebody who, who we will be, sharing the gospel with, but, but who will, be somebody, whom we can, we can continue, to come to, and they may have, misunderstandings, or misconceptions, maybe even be deceived, Lord, but that we would, continue to go to them, continue to speak with them, continue to point them, to the truth, and we pray ultimately, Lord, that as a result of that, they would be saved, Lord, be with us, as we leave, from this place, I pray God, that, that you would bless us, as we go out this week, and that you would use us, to make much of the name, of Jesus Christ, in his name we pray,

[58:19] Amen. Amen. Alright, God bless you all, hope that you have a great week.